Wednesday, January 18, 2012

The Concept of Sin Is Ridiculous!

I have often argued with theists that the word sin is not even a real word or concept outside the realm of religion. Sin is strictly a religious idea and outside the context of religious dogma it is entirely meaningless. I feel the same way about words such as divine, holy, etc. I recently went to to attempt to find a dictionary definition of the word sin without all of the holy hoo ha that believers like to add to it. This is what I came up with: 1.'transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam. 2.any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.'

In the definition above the first thing you may notice is that the word sin is immediately tied to religious ideologies. It is interesting to see that in the end of the first definition it uses the sin of Adam as an example. What exactly was the sin of Adam? Well, according to the creation story as narrated in Genesis it was in the simplest of terms his disobedience to a direct command from God. 16 Then Yahweh God gave the man this command, 'You are free to eat of all the trees in the garden.
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are not to eat; for, the day you eat of that, you are doomed to die.' Genesis 2: 16,17 (NJB).

Although Adam was induced by Eve who herself was enticed by the serpent to eat of this forbidden tree, They both directly disobeyed a direct command of God. Regardless of how theologians and apologists try to spin this word into some mysterious concept it is nothing more than simple disobedience. There is no mystical meaning to the word or concept of sin, contrary to what an Christian church may tell you. 

Why was disobeying God such a bad thing? Well, when you think of it it demonstrates defiance, rebellion, and discord between man and God. But...was this so bad that it could not be repaired and that the sin of this couple would lead to the infection of the entire creation, not just the human race? Absolutely not! According to the bible the one who determines what is moral, just, bad, or good is God, and as is demonstrated in the scriptures he has changed his mind from time to time. Here is an example: 13 'You shall not kill. Genesis 20:13 one of the ten commandments. 17 So kill all the male children and kill all the women who have ever slept with a man;18 but spare the lives of the young girls who have never slept with a man, and keep them for yourselves. Numbers 31: 17,18.

As you can see, although one of the ten commandments specifically prohibits killing others when Israel went to war against the Midianites under God's direct command and through the leadership of Moses it was okay to kill. In the end sin is what God says it is when he says it is, but it is always subject to change from time to time. That is why when I think of all the atrocities committed by the church against humanity I am not surprised nor do I hold it against them because all they are doing is what they learned from their bible. 

My biggest problem with the concept of sin is that of accountability. Our own human laws make everyone accountable for his or her own crimes and offenses against society. But God doesn't work that way apparently. He is more like a military boot camp drill sergeant, if one recruit screws up a marching drill the whole platoon pays for the offense. How Christians with this knowledge can continue to call their fictional God perfectly good and just is beyond me. 

The bible attributes our sinful natures to the single act of disobedience by Adam and Eve. As a result we are all born in sin and in need of salvation. In closing the idea of sin is stupid, comical, and at the same time outright illogical. We have all fallen short of the impossible standards of this fictional god that only through the fictional incarnation aka Christ can we be made whole again. Sin is not a disease, it's not something genetic, it's not tangible, it's nothing more than a stupid concept.

A real god that was just and true would forgive every man/ woman their transgressions and make everyone accountable for their own shortcomings. He wouldn't condemn an entire creation to utter destruction and torment for all eternity because he was offended by the actions of a few.


  1. God does not condemn the entire world and everyone is accountable for their own transgressions. Romans 3:23 says that 'all have sinned'. The condemnation was self imposed, not a wrathful choice by God.

    If there was a God (Obviously I believe in God), then why would God who demands perfection want his fallen creation in his presence? As God, the decision is his alone. Who am I to question it?

    Since God is the Judge (the one who determines our eternal salvation) he has to be just. Imagine you mother, or daughter was brutally raped and murdered and a judge decided to look past the obvious guilt of the murderer and just let him go saying, "You're forgiven". He would be a horrible judge and unjust. Since God is our judge, he must be just. Sending Christ to forgive our sins was an act of love because he could have left us condemned, making him even more just because he gives an opportunity for salvation.

    This is just my point of view and I'm sure you'd have a thousand responses for this! Id like to follow the blog and post my point of view on your discussion and invite you to do the same if your interested. You could call my blog the exact opposite of yours!

  2. @ Lost Blogger, thanks for sharing your view regarding this matter and welcome to my blog. I would be more than happy to exchange our views and ideas regarding this and other biblical topics that I have discussed. According to the tale of creation as told in the book of Genesis God created man to be perfect and to forever abide in his presence etc. This is made abundantly clear in Chapter 1:31 where on the sixth day after having finished creating :' God saw all he had made, and indeed it was very good.'So as you can see in the end God was very satisfied with his creation.

    When Adam and Eve disobeyed Gods direct order not to partake of that forbidden fruit all of humanity was infected by this fictional ideology of original sin. From there mans nature begins to become more and more depraved as time progresses. Man no longer lived after the spirit but rather after the desires of the flesh. The curse upon mankind for Adam and Eve's disobedience was a curse on all mankind not just the so called original couple.

    My point in this post is that I don't see how your god could blame all of humanity for the sins of two people in particular. It was like this from the beginning and the text you cited is just the continuation of this theological fact as told in the scriptures.

    I disagree that mans condemnation was self imposed for the simple fact that we were set up to fail from the beginning. It's like putting a child in a room full of candy and leaving them alone there with instructions not to eat anything.

    Genesis chapter 6 verse 7 also demonstrates that God was not just angry at man but at all of creation. Let me ask you this. What was the reasoning behind destroying all of the animals for the sins of man? And Yahweh said, 'I shall rid the surface of the earth of the human beings whom I created -- human and animal, the creeping things and the birds of heaven -- for I regret having made them.' Gen. 6:7 (NJB).

    The idea of Jesus dying for the sins of all of mankind is even more ridiculous, but we shall discuss that at another time. Let me just say that the idea of vicarious suffering is irrational and insane. But if you know your bible like I do you will know that Christ death and alleged sacrifice was a typology of the O.T. rituals of animal sacrifices. Jesus being that perfect sacrifice whose blood was the only thing that could wash away the sins of the world.

    Once again thanks for your comments and I look forward to hearing from you from time to time. Welcome to my blog and try not to take anything too personally. I am not here to offend but to inform.

  3. Here is some food for thought Lost Blogger. Many more liberal scholars are now saying that the first 11 chapters of Genesis were not literal historical events but allegorical events. The Adam and Eve story is supposed to be some sort of tale that is supposed to convey a more deeper spiritual teaching. I tend to agree that these tales are allegorical because of their mythical characteristics and the mathematical impossibility of one single couple populating the entire earth.

    If it's true that this tale in particular is an allegorical and non-historical event then it nullifies in my opinion the very idea of original sin. This is what is to be expected when myths clash with history they are found to be wanting and inconsistent.

  4. The comparison to criminal courts is a bit misleading too - Hell for anything other than mass torture-murders is even more ridiculous than it would be for a judge to sentence someone to death for jaywalking.

  5. @Chatpilot The beauty of Christ actually being on earth is that he did not correct or change the teaching of the Old Testament, therby solidifying the truth of it. Had he corrected it in any way, there would be no truth in it. That alone proves that the story of Adam and Eve and Genesis. Furthermore, if one were to assume the first 11 chapters are allegorical, then whats to stop you from assuming that the entire bible is allegorical? Also, it does not surprise me that "liberal scholars" claim that the first eleven chapters of Genesis are allegorical. By definition "liberal" implies freedom from the status-quo (in favor of reform). Christ himself might be considered liberal back in his day because of the reform he brought by the new covenant.

    I also find it quite humorous that atheists frequently argue against the teachings of the bible. For example, your argument about the "ridiculous nature of sin". As an atheist, you don't believe in God, Christ, or the bible, so why do you take things written in the bible as truths when you don't think the bible is truth? E.g. You said God condemns the world, but if the bible is not truth then God does not condemn the world...

    I understand an atheist making arguments against the existence of God, but why use the bible to refute it since in your own opinion your referencing a complete lie as the basis of your opposition.

    Also, as a mathematical impossibility of a single couple populating the world. If I were to give you a penny, double it every day for a month. e.g. day1 - 1 cent, day2-2 cents, day3-4cents, how much would you have in a month? Over a million dollars. Exponential growth is how it happened. Even scientists would argue that it started with a couple people, or even if they say it started with 100 people, that's only a few generations of exponential growth to get to that number. Just a few months ago an article came out by the AP that stated the earths population is set to double by 2100...Exponential growth baby!
    Just for fun I'm posting a rebuttal to your position on sin and the christian faith tomorrow on my blog ;) Its been written already, but scheduled for tomorrow afternoon! check it out! I know its hard to inflect a smile as your writing, but I'm not angry or anything, just providing my two cents ;)

    @MattShizzle All sins are equal to God... Not my rule, but his... I actually feel this is because it prevents us from thinking we can get into heaven on our own without Christ. It stresses utter dependence on him!

  6. @Lost Blogger, first off its good to see you again. To answer your first question Jesus did reform/change the Old Testament covenant by instituting a New Covenant. Through the new covenant animal sacrifices were no longer necessary, laws regarding the sabbath were relaxed, physical circumcision was eliminated and exchanged for "circumcision of the heart," Through the new covenant believers had a more direct relationship to God through prayer in Christ name.

    Regarding Adam and Eve and population growth your analogy does not work here. Unfortunately the bible doesn't say that it was a few people but instead that all of humanity was the result of this one couple. The name Adam is a descriptive term of his being formed from the ground 'The name Eve means Gathering, Declaration or Humility, because she was the mother of all of life.' Unfortunately people do not reproduce on a daily basis, as you should know it takes 9 months.

    Finally, I don't believe in God or the bible but I was a former fundamentalist Pentecostal evangelist and in order to refute your beliefs I must demonstrate that I understand the source of those beliefs (in this case the bible). And also demonstrate the falsity of those beliefs using your bible to show how its teachings are full of holes from a logical standpoint.

    Regarding your reply to Matt your god dictates what is moral, right, or wrong, and he changes his mind frequently. Unfortunately he does not edit his book so you're stuck with the old rules. Luckily he doesn't exist so you have nothing to worry about.

  7. I totally feel sorry for all martyrs who lost their lives for the sake of a fictional being. Its like killing yourself for the sake of batman or superman. the story in the bible that bugs me the most is the one about Job. His kids and family where wiped out to prove a point to satan??? Didnt those kids and families have dreams and aspirations? Maybe some of them wanted to be lawyers or doctors but nooooo, since god was challenged by satan (though shall not put the lord to the test or some nonsense like that)Job's kids had to die. I feel very sad for these believers because they miss out on so much life and are burdened by this riduclous threat of hell. Think of all the cool stuff that could have been invented if not for lost sundays were people confine themselves to buildings praising someone who is not there. It really breaks my heart and am not being sarcastic. Love the blog.

  8. I agree anonymous, that story of Job is the one tale in all of the bible that pisses me off the most. Christians like to throw a positive spin on it by pointing out that after Job had passed the test:12 Yahweh blessed Job's latter condition even more than his former one. He came to own fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand she-donkeys.13 He had seven sons and three daughters; Job 41:12,13 Big fucking deal! What about all the children he lost? What of his seven sons and three daughters? God replaced with 10 more kids but just to prove a point to Satan he allowed the death of the former. I don't see how anyone could think of the biblical God as moral, good, or just. Thanks for your comment and keep coming back.

  9. And anyway wouldn't god already KNOW what would happen, ya know, being god? Why would he need to actually make bad things happen? Why not just tell Satan to fuck off? Was he really thinking he'd impress Satan and get him to come back into the fold? You'd have to be mentally retarded to believe that story.

  10. It seems to me that the omniscient deity of the bible just likes to get his rocks off watching us squirm. In the case of Job he was not concerned with the outcome because if he was truly omniscient he already knew the result. One more of many reasons why the biblical God is he were to exist would classify as a universal ass hole!

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  12. But as an atheist you dont believe the bible, so you're squirming over a fictional character? :)

  13. Wow, you don't get it do you blogger? When I write about the nonsense that is the bible and the Christian beliefs in general I am writing from a dual perspective. I am attacking your beliefs from the perspective of a believer and an atheist. I treat the gospels as you do in my writing as if they were true and then pick them apart from a logical perspective.

  14. Hi fellows,

    The complicated nature of our existence begs the question, who is the creator? If there is none, then the entire universe is just a mere accident and somehow life erupted from the tiny particles and strings of molecules combining with each other and evolving into its variant forms and magically developing into intelligent form of life and automatically creating man who mysteriously ended up on the top of the food chain. In this view, the concept of intelligent design with a purpose behind it simply goes out the window. If the supreme intelligent being did not create us and all the other creatures, who did.
    Every human with soul and conscience has to know right from wrong to make his/her choices accordingly. Everyone is judged by certain standards and punished based on the violations of certain codes. Therefore, crime and sin are synonymous in that sense. One person or group of people cannot be punished for the crime of someone else because the concept of collective punishment does not exist in any society. Therefore, the concept of Jesus dying for the sins of humanity or at least his followers does not bode well with the concept of justice.

    Maybe the narratives in the scriptures are not exactly correct as it was written by men who tried to describe the stories as they understood it or wanted to be remembered. There is a lot of confusion in the minds of the people about what is in the holy scriptures as they are having difficulties connecting the dots or coming up with logical conclusions. Religion has been a big business for centuries and at the center of many wars and conflicts throughout the ages and, unfortunately, it is still going on today. The classic battle between the good and the evil are still being fought at every level in our society and from a religious point of view it is the battle between God and Satan. If God and Satan were not the central characters of the stories of the scriptures, the holy books become just books of fiction mixed with some facts and lots of fallacies.

    Historically speaking, humans have always pursued their own desires as they saw fit despite the holy men that tried to teach them morality. The moral codes are needed in every society for controlling our conduct and the system of penal codes are necessary to punish those who misbehave.

    I agree that the concept of hell is hard to swallow where the sinners will be tormented until eternity. However, the concept of justice demands that there be some accountability for our actions. Each of us are responsible for what we do and will be held accountable some day in a different court of law in front of a Supreme Judge who will be just, fair, and wise. When that time comes, I will plead no contest and throw my self at His mercy.

  15. "The complicated nature of our existence begs the question, who is the creator?"

    No it doesn't. Why does it have to be a who? And if this creator is a god or the Judaeo Christian God how do you know that amongst that thousands of gods that man has invented for himself that he is the one true God?

    " If the supreme intelligent being did not create us and all the other creatures, who did."

    Again your beliefs only work if you hold a presuppositionist position that god exists and not just any god but rather whatever god you chose to believe in.

    "Every human with soul and conscience has to know right from wrong to make his/her choices accordingly."

    Right from wrong do not in and of themselves require a deity or so called innate god consciousness. These morals and rules of right and wrong or acceptable behavior are both influenced greatly by our cultural and societal upbringing. These behaviors are taught not innate or instinctual. There are many cultures and societies that have very different views as to what is acceptable and moral behavior. There is no such thing in my opinion as objective morals because of this. Morals in my opinion are for the most part subjective based on all of the reasons I have just given.

    "Therefore, the concept of Jesus dying for the sins of humanity or at least his followers does not bode well with the concept of justice."

    Yet the doctrine of vicarious suffering is exactly what is taught in the New Testament. In fact, the Old Testament is also full of examples where many were condemned and died for the sins of the few.

    "If God and Satan were not the central characters of the stories of the scriptures, the holy books become just books of fiction mixed with some facts and lots of fallacies."

    Which is exactly what they are!

    " the concept of justice demands that there be some accountability for our actions. Each of us are responsible for what we do and will be held accountable"

    I agree, just that outside of this life there is no punishment or accountability. Now is the time for us to take responsibility for our actions not in some distant imaginary future beyond this one. Before you can make all of these ridiculous assumptions you must first prove that your god exists. Thanks for your comment.

  16. Non believers and atheists read the whole bible and write long arguments to prove that there is no God. And yet no matter how much they wrote, they are still unable to prove that there is no God. On the other hand, many Christians are silently experiencing the existence of God.

    Christians do not need to prove the existence of God. They KNOW his existence through experience.

  17. Non-believers read the whole bible and wrote long arguments the God does not exist, but still unable to prove the non existence of God. Christians, on the other hand, will never have to prove the existence of God because they experience his presence everyday. They KNOW God exist.

    1. Let's take a look at your weak argument for the existence of God based on experience.

      "Non-believers read the whole bible and wrote long arguments the God does not exist, but still unable to prove the non existence of God."

      Strike 1 !! The onus or the burden of proof is entirely on the one making the claim not the one denying it. For example if I told you that I had an invisible man who walked with me and talked with me and that only I can see him then your logical reaction would be to demand proof of my claim. If I demanded that you prove my claim wrong I would be making an unreasonable and irrational demand.

      Second if experience alone was all we needed to prove the existence of gods then you would also have to accept the experiential claims of others from other non-Christian religious groups making similar claims to experience as proof of their god. Otherwise you would be guilty of confirmation bias and or special pleading for your god and your experiences.

      Nice try but no cigar Gary. I was once a believer and had many so called experiences myself. I had a deliverance ministry and spoke in tongues etc. etc. Experience alone is not evidence it is nothing more than ones own subjective experience and nothing else.

  18. Replies
    1. What's pathetic there Gary? The fact that you have no clue how to formulate a logical argument in defense of your god? Or the fact that you are so deluded that you are utterly incapable of seeing the real world as it is?

      You base your beliefs on your so called experience of the Holy Spirit or witness of the Spirit and the charismatic displays of those under the influence of the power of god such as speaking in tongues, etc. If this is the case then you must accept the experiences of those from other religions as equally valid or present evidence as to why yours should stand out and be accepted above the rest.

      So called experiences of the divine are nothing more than subjective experiences that cannot be tested or proven objectively or empirically therefore they are invalid as evidence.

      If you had a vision, dream, or visitation from Jesus himself with no witnesses present then it is entirely subjective and you only have your word which we must accept as true in order to accept your experience. That is not evidence buddy.