There are many reasons why I left the faith, but one of the key reasons was that I had read the bible. There is an ongoing joke among atheists that states 'How do you convert a theist into an atheist? And the answer is that you should let him read the bible.' Regardless of context in the numerous cases of cruelty perpetrated by the biblical God against humanity, I found it hard for me to believe in him and found it more reasonable to accept that natural disasters for instance or birth defects are natural occurrences rather than acts of God.
One of the many things I found irritating about being a Christian is that you have to constantly defend the actions of your god at the expense of degrading yourself. We are supposed to be thankful to God everyday for giving us life and sacrificing his son/his self for mankind so that we can have eternal life in some imagined paradise up in the sky. The very idea of some creative being living in the sky or some other dimension, watching us, and dictating how things play out in every single individuals life is outright ludicrous. I've always said that when someone is praying he is supposed to be talking with God but when someone is talking to himself or some imagined person or friend he is considered mentally ill. I personally don't see any difference between the two acts.
The idea of people in a church singing to the imagined guy in the sky with arms raised above their heads jumping and carrying on is sad and at the same time looks foolish. I tend to pity Christians in general and Islamist who have to bow their heads in submission and pray 5 times a day facing the East etc. I personally think that anyone how does these things is mentally insane and completely deluded and out of touch with reality.
Life in general is what it is and I don't see us as greater than the animals, I see us as equal with them. We are all mortals and we have an expiration date that comes with our life, the thing is we don't know when that is. Some die at birth or in the womb, while others live to be a ripe old age and get to experience a lot of the things that life has to offer. Why waste your life praying to a deity that there is no evidence even exists? Why waste your time putting everything into the service of this deity and even sacrificing your life and what you want to do in exchange for your perceived idea of what this deity wants and desires?
In fact, what does this deity want and desire? Well, if you read your bible it seems that he can't get enough of worship and praise. He thrives on your submission to him and your complete obedience to him. He likes constantly reminding you that if it were not for his mercy you would not even be alive or spared his torment at the place he himself has made called hell after you die. I personally don't take too kindly to threats so the old torment after death thing does not sit well with me, and submission to an imagined authority fits in that same category.
One of the things I find most fascinating about life is its randomness and unpredictability, we are here today and may be gone a minute from now. That is why I live my life to the fullest each and everyday, without God life just makes so much more sense to me than if there were a god at all. I don't need to pray, I have no need for worship, I am content to enjoy the mystery and wonder that is life till it's my turn to check out.
I completely agree, and the thing of it is that the bible writers wrote with a premise of a one planet universe, but 2000 years now into the future, we are just a microscopic speck in a galaxy along with billions of galaxies similar to this one, but I cannot get that point across to xtians, they refuse to acknowledge that there are billions of odds that we are likely not alone.
ReplyDeleteI think it's foolish for anyone to believe that we are the only living beings in this universe to think that we are the only living beings, is to be very narrow and very closed minded, thus you have the prescription for a christian.
I am not completely convinced that we have been visited by alien life forms yet, but it has been one of my favorite topics of research. I completely agree that with the vastness of the universe and all of the other galaxies with their own suns there is a huge possibility that we are not alone in the universe.
ReplyDeleteAnother good point is the whole "You were born broken and only we can fix it". Talk about your monopoly! The idea that humans must somehow constantly atone for being human is ridiculous. Amazing Grace, while a beautiful song, I can't abide by the lyrics - you might be a wretch, but I certainly am not.
ReplyDeleteSteven, I agree I cannot get that point across to xtians, they refuse to acknowledge that there are billions of odds that we are likely not alone.
ReplyDeleteInteresting that you are happy to accept that without proof absolute yet seem to expect proof absolute that God exists ;)
Why not stay with balance of probability?
sala kahle - peace
chatpilot more reasonable to accept that natural disasters for instance or birth defects are natural occurrences rather than acts of God. I agree - wow lots of agreeing with atheists today!
ReplyDeleteI think we all reject the same fundamentalist literal inerrant bible version of GOd.
The difference is that when I found that God to be unlikely I did not rush to the conclusion that there was no God. I kept an open mind and said either there is no God or God is different from the one you describe.
My atheism came to end when the balance of probability came in favour of a more intelligent God, different from the fundamentalist God.
sala kahle - peace
"I kept an open mind and said either there is no God or God is different from the one you describe."
ReplyDeleteI don't see how you came to this conclusion, in order to do so you would have to dismiss all of the bibles accounts of God's cruelty towards mankind. You would have to dismiss the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the plagues against Egypt, and the many times the biblical God killed his own people for trivial acts of disobedience.
This is the greatest stumbling block for me, I can't dismiss these acts because if they were real occurrences then that just solidifies my opinion that if this God is real he is a tyrannical monster and is not worthy of worship but rather condemnation.
There is a bigger fallacy here. The default position is binary - god or no god. But really no god or the infinite number of possible other explainations (which includes all the possible versions of god)
ReplyDeleteI think once you realize that the very concept of god (this includes all gods) were inventions of man, and are nothing more than myths you really need to look no further.
ReplyDeleteA-bear, "Interesting that you are happy to accept that without proof absolute yet seem to expect proof absolute that God exists ;)"
ReplyDeleteThe reason I am happy to accept that other beings could exist without proof is because the amount of scientific knowledge about our universe has increased 1,000 fold in the last 150 years, just around in 1800's people thought that tomatoes were poison and would not eat them.
When you go back in time, knowledge decreases, when you go forward in time, knowledge increases. You may not be willing to accept this fact, but it's true.
Around 1 A.D., people thought that the earth was at the center of the universe, and that the heart was the source of all thought and emotions.
It sounds like you would prefer to believe that the bible contains all the knowledge available to man, past, present and future, if that being the case then, how come scientists do not use the bible to operate on a persons heart? How come pilots do not use the bible to navigate around the world? How come auto mechanics do not use the bible to work on a car? But yet you would prefer to believe the bible over any book that has ever been printed.
The bible cannot be used for as source of reliable information, because it, nor you, cannot substantiate it's claims, the bible was written to manipulate the way a person thinks and to scam people out of their money, and it worked for you to manipulate the way you think that's the reason you find it interesting that Atheists think differently than you.
ciao
Peter O'Toole in an interview said he was god. The interviewer asks how can this be. He replied. I was pray to god all the time and eventually realized I was only talking to myself.
ReplyDeletea-bear
ReplyDeletewho is your god? It sounds like it is the Catholic God or just your personal imaginary friend. Is this god involved with humanity? Is he good or just like us, not that powerful, not that all-knowing, not that perfect? If he is all good and all perfect why does he allow all this shit to go on? Does it please him? Is he a male? Or could he be Spinoza's god?
Chatpilot I can't dismiss these acts because if they were real occurrences ... and that is the point.
ReplyDeleteYou mention the flood ... mainstream Christianity describes the first 11 chapters of Genesis as myth ... why do you treat it any differently?
I have given you the basis for mainstream interpretation of the bible, yet you insist it is literally true .
If you accept that the accounts are true then God is not a nice guy as you would prefer – but since you accept the accounts are true then it must be true that God is not a nice guy.
If you claim the accounts are not true then either God does exist or is different from what the accounts present.
... but you can’t say the accounts are true and that therefore there is no God.
Don't misunderstand me, I do understand where you are at in this, I recognise my own feelings from my atheism, but I have accepted the mainstream Christian scholarship over what is true and not in the bible.
Sala kahle peace
Steven, when you go forward in time, knowledge increases. You may not be willing to accept this fact, but it's true. if you had read my previous comments you would know that I agree that scientific knowledge is expanding.
ReplyDeleteI also recognise that theology as a branch of knowledge is also expanding ... do you?
You ask how come scientists do not use the bible to operate on a persons heart? ... I would have thought it obvious why a doctor would not use a 2000+ year old theology text with a bit of oral history thrown in to perform medicine - would they even use a 2000+ old medical text.
Your point is silly.
sala kahle peace
akakiwibear:"If you accept that the accounts are true then God is not a nice guy as you would prefer – but since you accept the accounts are true then it must be true that God is not a nice guy."
ReplyDeleteIf this is the case that none of the evil perpetrated by God against man is not literal then why put that in the bible at all? It makes God look like an evil bastard. Then based on your interpretation methodology God did not free the Hebrews from Israel via the plagues imposed on Egypt, God did no smiting in the old testament at all, and anything and everything miraculous in the bible was bullshit. Thanks for clearing that up.
Chatpilot, Thanks for clearing that up. the pleasure is mine ... can you explain it to me now?
ReplyDeleteLet me propose the following to you:
1) Some of the OT tales of God doing things are no more than an extension of the practice of attributing everything that happens to GOd ... so some of it is not true
2) The survival of God's revelation - the one spiritual God thing - was important. I might accept that God may have intervened to ensure the survival of the Jews.
3) Why do we assume that death - if caused by God, even if apparently horrific - is necessarily bad for us? Perhaps we are more than compensated in the next life?
4) If we accept the tri-omni GOd then we should accept that if God specifically willed it then it was for the best.
Certainly this is one of my questions for God when I get to the next life ;)
Sala kahle - peace
ex-minister1 ... I doubt God is catholic or even Christian nor likely to be Hindu or any other religion.
ReplyDeleteI prefer Gandhi's view that "God has no religion". Certainly God did not create religion, people did.
Sala kahle - peace
a-bear,
ReplyDeleteSo you agree that Genesis is a myth and so is Jesus? In essence God is unknowable?
a-bear,
ReplyDelete"Your point is silly."
Yet your points are not?
I wrote,
"But yet you would prefer to believe the bible over any book that has ever been printed."
Do you believe the bible is the absolute word of god or not? Or just the parts in it that you want to believe?
I prefer Gandhi's view that "God has no religion". Certainly God did not create religion, people did.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a very confused individual to me. Let me know when you find yourself again kiwi.
The usual defenses keep tumbling out. "That is your god, my god is different." That's great akakiwibear, but you got the foundation of "your god" through the same book of myths - the bible. Every Christian thinks they have the ONLY correct interpretation... the "other Christians have it all wrong."
ReplyDelete.
Which leads us to their next way of wiggling out of the bible's absurdities. Modern Christians are always willing to claim certain parts of the bible are myth, allegory, or fiction - yet not completely dismiss the bible entirely. Non-literalists will even espouse evolution and other non-traditional anti-Christian concepts.
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I didn't give up my faith when first reading the bible cover-to-cover either. Like Paul and other apologists I kept looking for other ways to reconfigure my faith with the crap I read in the bible - including non-literalism. I looked for other explanations and avenues. Apologetic approaches come out all butchered and restitched into a Frankenstein that tosses Occam's Razor in the trash.
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To arbitrarily parse out the parts you don't like, then patchwork bits of science, a bucket of rhetoric, and a lot of fancy logical footwork only makes your brand of Christianity more pathetic, complicated, and ironically irrational.
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Jesus believed in Genesis, he was even attributed by gospel authors as quoting it to validate monogamous marriage in Matthew. He supposedly believed the Pentateuch since he quoted from it and commanded his followers to obey every jot of the Mosaic Laws. He believed a variety of OT garbage that modernist Christians would laugh at and explain as allegory or myth. Was your Jesus wrong (howabout fallable)? How is 600 year old Noah's 450' long boat a "myth" while Jesus being a hybrid god-man born of a virgin and capable of all sorts of magic tricks not a myth?
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Don't speak to us about "probability" akakiwibear. Manipulate the core text however you like, in the end the most plausible probablity is that the bible has ZERO insider information on the existence/nonexistence or form/nature of god. It only has an anthropological value in interpreting the mythologies and religions of a primitive, superstitious, racist, and violent culture as found in ancient Israel over a period of time.
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The bible is a joke and attempts to "fix it" (obsessively, by hook or crook) are a form of mental illness. Modern theology seems to be about making the bible say something that it doesn't actually say.
johnnycrash77 it seems some people want that nonsense to make sense so bad that they would bend over backwards to try to reconcile it's absurdities.
ReplyDeleteFor most Christians and fanatical religionists up is down and down is up.
You said: In fact, what does this deity want and desire? Well, if you read your bible it seems that he can't get enough of worship and praise. He thrives on your submission to him and your complete obedience to him. He likes constantly reminding you that if it were not for his mercy you would not even be alive or spared his torment at the place he himself has made called hell after you die. I personally don't take too kindly to threats so the old torment after death thing does not sit well with me, and submission to an imagined authority fits in that same category."
ReplyDeleteIn a similar spirit, I'd like to recommend Angie the Anti-theist's YouTube series, in which she dissects Rick Warren's The Purpose Driven Life.
The intro to the 40+ part series is at:
http://www.youtube.com/user/AngieAntiTheist#p/u/55/ywDNQZelUJk
Angie takes on a lot of religion-based topics with passion and the personal perspective of one who has been grievously hurt by it.
In the science fiction series by Piers Anthony, this explanation is offered as to why "god" no longer interacts with mankind as "he" did in the old testament: "God" is a narcissist who became so enthralled with his own reflection in a mirror, that he stopped paying attention to humanity.
ReplyDelete