One of the contentions I have heard from Christians regarding the tale of Adam and Eve is that it was not meant to be taken literally, some have even gone as far as stating that Adam and Eve never existed. They state that that tale is allegorical and is not supposed to be taken as history. In this post I am going to refute that claim using the bible against itself. In my last post I spoke of the differences in the two tales of creation and stated that this was a bone headed mistake, it is in fact not just a mistake it is an error that one can attribute to bad editing. It is claimed by most biblical scholars that there are possibly four authors who are responsible for the Pentateuch/Torah and it is because of this belief that many of the tales in the bible repeat themselves over and over.
The first clue that Adam and Eve are meant to be taken literally as the first humans to walk this Earth is evident in the following text from Genesis 4:1,2 1.'And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.' Whenever the bible states that someone knew someone it is a reference to sexual intercourse and that is what occurred when Adam knew his wife. As a result of that union she became pregnant and eventually had two sons Cain and Abel as stated in the text. According to the story Cain eventually killed his brother Abel and was cast far away from his parents to the land of Nod where he eventually built a city. Genesis 4:17And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
So naturally if Enoch is considered an historical figure in the bible, then one can safely assume that his parents were also historical figures as well, but this gets even better so read on. The bible does not only prove that Adam and Eve were real people but it also solidifies this claim by giving them a lineage. Genesis 4:25'And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.' So now it is no longer Cain and Abel but rather Cain and Seth. Although the bible never gets into where Cain got his wife from it is interesting to see that it never mentions that Adam and Eve had any daughters either.
This is what I call the nail in the coffin of those that claim that Adam and Eve were not meant to be taken as literal and historical figures. Genesis 5:1-5 1'This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 3And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:4And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:5And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.'
The bible itself claims that Adam and Eve were historical figures by stating plainly that Adam had children, one of which built a city, he had a lineage, and it even says that he had sons and daughters. If you read the text carefully all of these things become self evident. The entire chapter 5 of Genesis goes on to name the sons of Adam and the sons and daughters of his sons. Based on the bible as evidence then it is safe to conclude that this tale was in fact meant to be taken literally and anyone who claims it wasn't has simply not taken the time to read the bible. Adam is said to have lived 930 years and then died.
I once heard a Christian say; " Even if the bible claimed that Jonah swallowed the whale, I would still believe it".
ReplyDeleteI was the same type of Christian. Thou shalt not THINK....only BELIEVE!
Of course there is no mention of Adam & Eve having daughters. Women are only property in the Bible. It amazes me how many women believe in the Bible when it clearly makes them 2nd class citizens. It's equivalent is the Jews believing in Mein Kampf. I broke Godwin's corollary but oh well. I don't do it often.
ReplyDeleteOne of the worst text is Deu 22
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,
29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Can you imagine this from the woman's perspective? She is raped, forced to marry her rapist forever and her father makes some change off it. 50 shekels is about $325. God is a prick.
Actually, it gets worse . . .
DeleteSome different versions of this story claim that there WERE two women in this story. When Abel was born, he had a twin sister and when Cain was born _he_ had a twin sister two. So as to vary their breeding, each brother was told to marry the other's twin.
Cain thought his twin was prettier, so he declined and killed Abel for wanting to take _his_ sister.
So, the first crime was said to be committed because one man considered a woman his property and also, it seems to reinforce the ideal that women are to blame for original sin, as the Eden myth first said.
To address GOD in such a manner I believe you are an atheist and you will definitely burn in hell.
ReplyDeletejohnnyp39 this is exactly why I am not a theist. You can take your tyrannical God and blow each other. I don't serve anyone, especially tyrants and fiends. Your god is a monster and in all truth he makes Hitler look like a saint.
ReplyDeleteWhen did the other females come from after adam and eve the bible only tells of eve. No other females how could the others have populated the earth with only one known female eve
ReplyDeleteNo one can stop another from his/her point-of-view; however, should we not, at the very least, have Respect for God, whom we may (and probably WILL) be calling for at the time of our death. I would not be calling God a derogatory name. God is merciful, but don't mistake this for His acceptance of blasphemy.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comment Anonymous but blasphemy is what we atheists like to refer to as a victimless crime. I personally don't even know what you mean when you speak of God because the existence of this being has not been proven. I don't pray nor do I call out to him in times of need. I have no time to believe in myths when I have enough problems dealing with the real world and my day to day life.
ReplyDeleteAs Christians we believe that God is spirit and not materie.You cannot show me how you think, how the words and pictures in your brain are
ReplyDeleteformed.The best science can do is to observe brain activity.
The fact that I cannot observe how you are thinking does not imply that
you are not thinking.The God of the Bible is as Dr Mike Jarvis in his
book God by evolution states:We now consider in greater detail the dimension of reality that we call God. He is the supreme intelligence and he operates within the Timeless Dimension, but is independent of this dimension. He, like the cosmic laws that gave rise to the Big Bang, is transcendent.
This means he exists before the Universe was created and will continue to exist if the Universe ends. Once we admit to the possibility, or I would say the certainty, that intelligence exists within the Timeless Dimension, this opens us up to accepting the reality of ‘spirit beings’, such as angels and demons.
He further states:If ‘thought’ and ‘consciousness’ are a form of ‘associated’ energy that has no mass, then I suggest they are able to enter the Timeless Dimension, characterised by non-locality and instant communication between all parts of that dimension.
If the activity of the human mind is able to contact the Timeless Dimension, then telepathic thought transfer between minds could occur instantaneously, independent of distance and independent of time. If thought transfer can occur between human minds via the Timeless Dimension, then it will be a small step to suggest that there is thought, mind, and consciousness within the Timeless Dimension. Just as our world has levels of energy complexity, and has culminated in the amazing energy manifestation called life, in similar manner the Timeless Dimension includes the equivalent
degrees of complexity, including a dimension of ‘timeless consciousness’ and/or a dimension of ‘spirit’.
It seems that, within the Timeless Dimension no information is ever lost. We just do not know how to access this information. However, if we could discover the key to opening up access to the ‘quantum library’, we might find amazing things, such as the quantum book of our lives!"
( a unit used for measuring very small amounts of energy (c) Macmillan Publishers Ltd. 2003 quantum theory [the belief that energy is produced in units and that the size of these units can be calculated (c) Macmillan Publishers Ltd. 2003)
Hamlet:
And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy and may I add in your Atheistic
belief system.
I believe God does exist you believe he does not, but I believe you are a thinking man but unable to show how thoughts arise in your brain or how they are formed.
This realm of spirit could be considered the 6th Dimension of reality. 22How could the mind of God cause the Big Bang? The key would seem to be the power of mind over matter. How about God, with his awesomely great mind, causing the Big Bang event by ‘thinking into’ the infinite energy of the Timeless Dimension and wilfully imposing a ‘locality’, an instant of ‘now’?
As far as the collective mind goes it reminds me of the Borg from Star Trek and is not science but pseudo-science and science fiction. How thoughts arrive in our brains have nothing to do with your imaginary God. To even ponder what you are suggesting takes a great stretch of the imagination that goes beyond reason. It took you about six paragraphs to say nothing of worth. All you've managed to demonstrate to me is that you are willing to believe in the unbelievable in order to sustain your basic Christian beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI often wonder if your comments are worthy of a reply.
ReplyDeleteYou should perhaps first acquaint yourself with the works of Dr Mike Jarvis and others before
you post your reply.
Unfortunately Anon, I don't like wasting my time reading nonsensical works based on wild speculations. The bible which I have read four times in its entirety is enough nonsense for anyone to read. Enough to last a lifetime. The fact that believers can't seem to separate myth from reality is telling against their ability to reason. Christianity just happens to be their myth of choice and so accepting that belief they proclaim with unfounded certainty that all other religious beliefs are false. So I think that I agree with you when you say my comments are not worth a reply. Finally, we agree on something! The fact that Dr. Jarvis is trying in his book 'God by evolution' to reconcile science with ID is ridiculous and has been attempted by many to no avail. It's just another foray into absurdity.
ReplyDeleteYou once again are missing the point.You're unable to explain a process that takes place on a daily basis in the natural realm, but yet claim that a spiritual being cannot exist in another dimension.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that the Bible writers were not addressing their message to you or me but to in the first place their family and fellow country man.This was their inspired effort to explain the origin of man in light of the knowledge prevailing at the time.
No think 2000 years forward and imagine what
people will say about our knowledge base.The point is that existence of God cannot be proven or disapproved,therefore any thinking man would not dismiss the possibility, how remote he think it might be the existence of an eternal being in a different dimension.
The question is how are thoughts and images formed in our minds. I suggest you read this article at this link: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/brain_basics/know_your_brain.htm to learn a little more about how the brain functions. You might want to email Dr. Jarvis and recommend he do the same.
ReplyDeleteWhat you are doing is reasoning from the gap theory. Basically if we can't explain a certain thing fully, in this case how thoughts and images are formed in the brain then the obvious answer is that God did it. Although the existence of God cannot be proven or disproven the onus is upon you the believer to prove it, since you are making the positive assertion that he does exist.
Let's say God does exist, then we are left with more pressing questions. Which God is the real god and should we worship him/her/it? And finally how can we determine without social or cultural bias which god is the real god.
So we are moving forward at last, which is a good start.If you read Genesis carefully it nowhere makes a statement that paradise and the creation of man is perfect.Good yes, very good but not perfect.How for instance would Adam and Eve know about death, that they would die and what it meant to die if death had not occurred in the animal world.
ReplyDeleteGenesis also makes no claim that Adam and Eve
were the only humans in existence. This is born out by the fact that Cain found a wife after he
left after the death of his brother.The origin of man is not a simple matter.
In 2004 the Roman Catholic Church made the following statement"Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.
While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution. "
The idea of a single branchless has been abandoned by most scientists of not,the looking at a wayward bush bearing in mind that different species of prehistoric man co-existed
in Africa and that Europeans carry as much as 4% of the Neanderthal genome which is not found
in Africans.
Evolution after all is not a much concerned with the origin of life as it is how life and life forms adapted. God the Creator uses nature
to produce rain and all the plagues of Egypt
we now know are no more but natural occurrences.
Time has arrived for you to pick up your Bible again and read it again and leave all your previous ideas and concepts behind.
Now put yourself in Adam's shoes and ask yourself if you are capable of obeying God's law.
If 'Yes' you don't need salvation , if 'no' you do.Mankind offers no solution, the Bible does
and the Bible only becomes important because the
God of the Bible is important and for no other reason, that is if you believe that God really
does exist.
Anonymous, thank you for keeping this discussion civil. It is definitely quite a departure from the typical "you are an atheist and you are going to burn in hell" discussions I get from time to time.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you regarding Adam and Eve and family not being the only humans in existence. But not because Cain found a wife but rather because I don't see how one family could possibly populate the entire Earth. I view the entire creation myth as narrated in the bible as a local creation story. Almost every culture has one.
Let us not forget that according to Genesis 6:7 God said:7 'And Yahweh said, 'I shall rid the surface of the earth of the human beings whom I created -- human and animal, the creeping things and the birds of heaven -- for I regret having made them.' (New Jerusalem Bible)
According to this passage God decided to start all over again. He only spared Noah and his family which came to eight people who were later left the task of repopulating the Earth.
Going back to the creation story the fact that Cain found a wife in the land of Nod is not stating that Adam and Eves family were not the only ones on the Earth but is in fact a discrepancy. The story makes it quite clear that Adam was the first man God created and that Eve was later created out of Adams rib. There is nothing else in between stating that he did this in several places at once.
Assuming that because Cain found a wife after being cast out from his family is just reading into the text what quite simply is just not there. It's apologetics which I like to call trying to make sense out of nonsense.
"So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are."
The only problem with this is that you first have to prove the existence of the soul. Regarding your next paragraph I am not sure I understood you but evolution does not posit that all species evolved in a single line of descent from simplest to more complex forms of life. It teaches that instead of viewing descent as a ladder that it should be viewed as a tree with many branches.
To answer your last question no man is capable of obeying God's laws as narrated in the scriptures. But here you are working from a presupposition that the scriptures are true. I personally don't believe that they are.
I have covered in my blog several times how the concept of sin is irrelevant outside of a religious context. I don't consider sin a real thing, concept, or idea. Finally, mankind does not need to solve the God puzzle from an atheistic point of view since as an atheist to us there is no God puzzle to solve since there is no God.
Please contact me, I work for a professor of Cornell who has done extensive research confirming a historical Adam and Eve consistent with the Bible (and is writing a book on this with another geneticist)...you are correct that the Bible teaches a historical Adam and Eve, however, you are misguided to abandon your faith over this. As I would like introduce you to this professor of Cornell and former atheist who now agrees that a recent Adam and Eve is the most probable explanation for human origins based on genetic evidence that is not mainstream. There are problems with the molecular clock, and the Out of Africa model of human origins (as well as the competing Multiregional Hypothesis). Do not abandon your faith over this. As the esteemed evolutionist and Harvard professor Richard Lewontin wrote, “Despite the excited and optimistic claims that have been made by some paleoanthropologists, no fossil hominid species can be established as our direct ancestor...”
ReplyDeleteTrust in Jesus not the falliable interpretations of atheistic scientists that worship at the idol of naturalism.
Blessings from a friend,
CR