This is the recognized meaning of what it means to be just and to serve justice. If we were to analyze the biblical deities behavior towards man as a whole I would have to say that he fails to even come close to this definition. What is the difference between Hitler trying to exterminate an entire race of people through genocide and God trying to exterminate the entire human race? In my opinion, there is none. In fact, I believe based on reading Mein Kampf and other works by Hitler that he believed that he was acting with God's favor, and in trying to exterminate the Jews he was taking a page from the biblical deities biography the bible.
I have said many times that the idea or concept of sin was a human invention, and that it did not exist in a secular world. Sin is defined as an offense against God; basically anything you do that offends or goes against the teachings of the bible as interpreted by the mentally handicapped believers of the various sorts is a sin. The fact that God does not exist means that sin does not exist either. Now before you theists all get your panties in a bunch about that statement; let me make something clear. When I say that God does not exist I speak for myself. I am convinced "to my own satisfaction" that there is no God. I can't prove or disprove it; but my experiences and research from both the perspective of a believer, and now an atheist have led me to believe and accept with one hundred percent certainty that he does not exist.
Now let's put the biblical God to a test as to whether or not he is just. By the way theists define the words just and justice to mean whatever God says it means in the bible they are not operating from the established dictionary definition. The bible teaches in Genesis chapter three that Adam and Eve had sinned against God by eating of the forbidden fruit which by the way happened to be from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It wasn't just the act of defiance that was a sin; it was also the idea of defying God since he does not like to be contradicted.
As a result of their disobedience (sin); Adam and Eve were cursed with a sinful nature which apparently is inheritable by all subsequent generations of humans, the animals are cursed as well although I don't know what they could've done to deserve that, and so was the land. And because of this one couples disobedience we are all born outside of God's love and grace unless we repent and accept him as our Lord and savior.
Now let's bring this fictional situation down to earth. The first question is do you think that God acted justly in punishing the whole of the natural world for the disobedience of one couple? I think not! If we were to compare the idea of sin to a genetic disorder we would see that in some instances genetic disorders are isolated and do not affect the entire family of a group of people. When it does it often skips a generation or two. But unlike God genes are not conscious entities and only function on a biochemical level in a very natural way. The idea of sin is akin to genetic disorders with the exception that sin is a conscious decision to disobey God. And that unlike genetic disorders God imposes that sin on everyone regardless of your innocence or guilt. With God no one is innocent!
23 No distinction is made: all have sinned and lack God's glory,
24 and all are justified by the free gift of his grace through being set free in Christ Jesus. Romans 3:23-24 (NJB).
If a person commits a crime he/she is solely responsible for that crime. This also applies to others involved in the crime such as abetters and co-conspirators. Under the definition of justice they all must be judged and the punishment must fit the crime. But imagine a judge who decides that the offenders entire family be held accountable for his/her crime. His father for providing the semen, his mother for conceiving him, and the rest of earlier generations to the present for providing the means for his/her future birth. Let's imagine that his/her crime was so heinous that it demanded the death penalty and that the offenders entire family must now be executed. Would you think that this judge was a just man? If you did, then my opinion is that you seek immediate psychiatric help.
The biblical God's idea of justice is in my opinion perverted and quite frankly far from just. What makes God any different from the judge in our hypothetical situation? The idea that he created us does not give him the right to destroy us at the drop of a hat, and any theist that disagrees with this statement is delusional. Justice in the Christian sense is what God says it is and is therefore subjective and not objective. It is subjective to the whims and mood swings of the imaginary guy in the sky as I so affectionately like to refer to him.
Is it just that anyone who refuses to believe in this deity; who by the way, has provided absolutely no evidence whatsoever of his existence are condemned to an eternity in hell? My sin is that I don't believe in mythological fairy tales or imaginary deities. Otherwise I consider myself to be a good person who looks after his family the best I can and stays out of trouble. I help out others when I am able and like anyone else I have a few flaws (nobody's perfect).. I might think impure thoughts from time to time or even laugh at a theist or two about their twisted idea of reason and logic. But I don't think that this merits my torment in hell after I am dead. These are the sick and twisted ideas of the psychotic authors of the bible and other so called holy texts.
Man has shown more love, compassion, and care than the biblical God could ever hope to attain. We have erred along the way but along with being human we have demonstrated in some cultures the proper use of justice and law. God's law as described in the scriptures is not justice and its giver although he is fictional would be nothing more than a despotic psychotic megalomaniac and a tyrant!
yes, i agree.. i stopped believing in God this year. but this God scares me once i think about it. they say we shouldnt want his justice but his mercy.. psh!.. please..
ReplyDeletethe whole garden of eden, original sin thing puzzles me. we are all to blame yet God is not?? i know he did not force adam to eat the fruit but since he knew it would happen and created it to happen that way then why the bitch fit? i do not think they (theist) will ever be able to answer this. furthermore was cursing us with a sinful nature the way to go for a perfectly good god who cannot even look at sin? i do not see the justice here or the goodness of doing this. i do not know why we were not given the opposite of this and make us more inclined to good things and god... it sure would have made things easier and that way only those who are pure evil would sin (i know my logic might be flawed somewhere)..
it just does not make sense why a just god would punish people for not believing and/or acting upon the desires he gave them himself which are sinful.. it's disturbing.. and many people will die and have died without having a chance to hear the 'good news' and they deserve hell? is luck a factor into getting to heaven aswel? the common response by theist is that they 'somehow' had a chance because god imparts the truth through the holy spirit to everyone. so it is their fault and they chose hell. furthermore, that means when a person hears the gospel of jesus, a part of them will confirm and there is no denying the truth despite who, where or what you are. only rejecting because by hearing it you automatically believe through the holy spirit lol... it once made sense
@cee-kas, thanks for your comment. I personally think that the Christian fairy tale is the silliest invention of man. From an objective point of view it makes absolutely no logical sense at all. According to the bible man is at fault for everything bad that has ever happened to us. And the only way to fix that is to acknowledge that God is our Lord and master and the only one who can free us from the bondage of sin and subsequent eternal death and torture. Any god who would torture someone for not worshiping them is not a god in my eyes but a tyrant. In the whole scheme of things we are not at fault for our calamity but God is. It is a problem he created and if you happen to read the bible in its entirety one day you will see that God is quite good at creating unnecessary problems. In the end he points the finger at us and says its your fault but I will forgive you if only you kiss my ass. LOL what bullshit!
DeleteAccording to Sage:
ReplyDeleteJustice: Judgement involved in the determination of rights and the assignment of rewards and punishments. JUST: 'Free from favoritism, self-interest, bias, or deception; conforming with established standards or rules.
According to Romans 2:
2 God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.
6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
11 For God does not show favoritism.
The manner in which the sage dictionary defines the terms is exactly the same as how the bible defines them in Romans 2, the only difference is that the the bible doesn't establish justice by man's standards, but by God's. As an atheist, you don't believe in absolute standards. So how does a person with no absolute standard of truth determine what is just? Without a pre-established standard, one must first be established. So in reality, justice is not based on actual truth, but rather on mindset of the majority, or of those in positions of authority. When the standards are determined by the people, can it ever truly be free from favoritism, self-interest, bias, or deception? When the standards are always subject to change, can we ever really call this justice? Or perhaps you are content with any standard of justice, so long as it does not invoke a deity. In which case, your entire blog post is irrelevant because you are not at all concerned with an established standard of truth or justice unless it's your own.
"When the standards are always subject to change, can we ever really call this justice?"
DeleteThere is no such thing as absolute standards of justice. It is often demonstrated in the bible that God changes or modifies his laws from time to time. In fact one perfect example of many is the commandment in Exodus 20:13 'You shall not kill.' Or thou shalt not kill whichever you prefer. But then later he tells the Hebrews: 7 They made war on Midian, as Yahweh had ordered Moses, and put every male to death.8 What is more, they killed the kings of Midian, Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba, the five Midianite kings; they also put Balaam son of Beor to the sword.17 So kill all the male children and kill all the women who have ever slept with a man;18 but spare the lives of the young girls who have never slept with a man, and keep them for yourselves.
Numbers 31:7-8,17-18(NJB).
According to this text it was okay to kill as long as God justified it. You could make the argument that they were at war but that would not hold water. Where is the justice in the killing of non-combatants in this situation? God gets angry at the Midianites and so he decides to kill every man,woman, and child? Those are the acts of a blood thirsty psychopath not of a loving God.
If you justify these acts of the Hebrews then you must justify the near extermination of the Jews by Hitler who also believed he was acting on God's behalf.
David, if you are saying "There is no such thing as absolute standards of justice" then you just undermined your entire argument. If there is no standard of justice, then all we have is our own opinions. So your statement that God's actions against the Midianites are those of a blood thirsty psychopath, not of a loving God, is your opinion and NOT a fact, because facts must be based on absolute truths, not relative truths.
DeleteThis whole "God of Love" business is taken way out of context. People use this as a way to rationalize that God would never punish anyone. That God never gets angry. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but by virtue of the fact that God Loves what is Good, it stands to reason that God hates what is Evil. If God will reward the righteous, he will punish the wicked. This is consist from Genesis to Revelation.
If you don't think that God's actions are just, I certainly can't convince you otherwise. But I am interested to hear what you would have done in God's position. How would you have handled the situation? What would your idea of justice be? Have you stopped to ask yourself WHY God acted so harshly on these people? Have you investigated what their crimes were?
:)
Jackie
Their so called crimes do not take away from the fact that God was not justified in ordering the murder of all the Midianite children as well. In doing so he is punishing as you like to call it the children for the sins of their fathers.
DeleteMy argument stands contrary to your skewed judgement. So called absolute standards of justice are subject to change. Once again you did not address the change that I demonstrated in my post about God's command to not kill. Yet when he says it's okay then it is no longer a sin to do so. This demonstrates that even your God's laws are not absolute. They are subject to his little tantrums and whims.
One of my favorite lectures on a similar topic... it's called "God of Love - Church of Arrogance."
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miov4Owm4is
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIf God is just, he cannot forgive you, unless...
ReplyDeleteI want you to whatch this video, and learn more about what a Just God means...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8VqbT17Owc
Dear Chatpilot, before I start my reply to everything in the comments and your post, I would love to know why you removed the post from Josue Zelaya. (I didn't see the comment before it was removed.)
ReplyDeleteAnyways, I am a Christian and only 14 so I am deeply sorry if my argument isn't entirely full, but God has instructed me to do this.
First, your post for the blog I almost completely disagree with it. The parts I am disagreeing with you on is when you say It's God's fault. Think about it this way: You said he made it happen that we sinned against him, this is true, but he also made EVERYTHING. He made Adam and Eve, me and you, plants and mountains, hills and valleys, protons and neutrons, space and time. He didn't need us at all. He doesn't need anything at all. He didn't need Heaven, but he made that too. He is just making a complex story to of course praise himself for he is perfect and deserves all things good. Just because he punished all of humanity doesn't mean that it is wrong nor his fault. He made it happen for the glory in which he deserves. Also, just because he punished EVERYONE doesn't mean he left them out to die and rot in Hell. He offers forgiveness to anyone who believes in him. Which EVERYONE can do. If you believe that you should not be punished for what others do then go to God and he will take care of it. God used this HUGE judgement on everyone to show his endless power so that we would come to him for forgiveness and eagerness to make everything right. He simply commands you do to thinks for his will because we are in debt to him. If you are going to argue that "Well yeah, but he still made this mess" then let me also tell you this. He only created all of this out of love. He loved us to even bother making anything. He planned out everything before it existed. No one will fully understand why God made things go the way they did except God. So of course my definition is going to fall short, but so does yours. I am trying to use what God would tell you, but the English language is so insufficient into defining what I want to tell, plus my age is a handicap. Send me your best argument back at me. Do not hold back because of my age because God wants me to do this to train me further into my faith and bring you back into the possibly strong faith you had and bring faith to those who may be convinced by my post. You should also try asking God these questions.
@HunterSCat55, I removed Josue Zelaya's post initially because it wasn't a post it was just a link with no information to where it leads. He reposted the link and this time wrote something down to describe what that link leads to.
ReplyDeleteMy argument is simple. The biblical God whom you call loving and good is not nor does he appear loving and good. When I read the bible for the first time in its entirety I was shocked at what I learned and disgusted with the actions of the deity you believe in. Judging God by the standards of men; which are supposedly inferior to those of God (not really) is all it took to make me reject him. Any man who has done to other men what God has done to mankind in the bible would be called a monster. Vlad the impaler, Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Mao and others have all gone down in history as immoral monsters. Their deeds pale in comparison to those deeds attributed to your God in the bible. There is nothing good about God.
Damning people to hell for not believing in him and requiring evidence of his existence is immoral and wrong. This is something you would expect from Hitler. He exterminated everyone he did not like and in Mein Kampf he states that he was paying the Jews back for what they had done to Jesus! Around 6 million Jews were murdered and another 5 million from other races before Hitlers regime was stopped. So Hitler was responsible for the murder of a total of about 11 million people. What a monster! Why should God be seen in a different light?
God should be seen in a different light because my almighty powerful God set up the whole punishment for a reason. Does it not make more sense for a court to undo it's judgement upon a person, but demand a small thing in exchange or just let the person do what ever he/she wants and just Willy nilly forgive people in exchange for a small thing? Which one seems easier to remember? This is no unjust move, this is the best way God knew man would be reminded of what happens because of sin. Even if God had not punished the children of Adam and eve and put back into the garden of Eden, they would still have most likely wondered where their parents were and they would go find them for their own consent. It is not God's fault for what Adam and eve did. God let Adam and eve do all things sin-less freely and decided to test their strength against wrong doings by letting Satan attempt to cast sin into the world. If God did not allow this to happen, me and you would not exsist. Just think, he choose us over the infiante amount of different realalities that could have happened, but he wanted you and me and everyone alive today to be here. Also on a kind of side-note, I think you should visit a baptist church. I'm baptist and I have been to many types of churches and I think you might benefit from the baptist point of view because the service is organized and it's all for God.
ReplyDeleteWhat you are saying is not biblical,the bible doesn't teach that at all.We are not been punished for Adam and eve sin, the bible says that because of Adam ,sin entered the world and his children (US) are now born in sin with the tendencies to sin, look at it this way lets say you can go any where in the world and have your kids , and you choose to go to Jamaica and have your kids , well your children are now Jamaican by birth because you choose to have them in Jamaica , now lets say someone take them out of Jamaica and bring them to America after awhile they will become Americans, now those kids can now say we are Jamaican by birth which is no fault of our own because our parents choose to have us there but now we are in American and we want to be called American which we now have a choice in the matter or they can even say we want to stay Jamaican . That kind of how is it with Adam and Eve and us they choose to sin which is no fault of ours but now because they sin there children (US) are now born in sin so we are sinner.Adam had nothing to offer us except a sinful nature (dna)because we are coming from him who is now a sinner, just like you have no other citizenship to offer your children except Jamaican because you have them in Jamaica.But the good news is this "As soon as there was sin, there was a Saviour... .As soon as Adam sinned, the Son of God presented Himself as surety for the human race,we see that there is a Saviour before repentance, which means that we are not dealing with salvation and eternal life.
ReplyDeleteJesus stepped in here on behalf of the human race. As soon as there was sin (condemnation for all men), there was a Saviour (justification of life for all men). This means that every baby born into this world already has a Saviour, who has dealt with the problem of Adam's guilt and condemnation, so that the baby does not come into the world bearing that condemnation. Adam and the human race were not left for even one second all alone under the penalty of sin and its condemnation. At the moment of Adam's sin, Christ was there to save the race from destruction.Just like you have your kids in Jamaica making them Jamaicans but someone took them away at birth and take them to America and later they now have the choice if they will stay Jamaican or Americans. We are born sinner because we are coming from a sinner but Jesus the son of God saved us from Adams guilt we don't have Adams guilt on us but we now have a choice to stay sinner or accept the second chance that God has given us.The practical reality of all of this is that while we are born in a sinful world with a fallen nature, we are not born lost sinners. We become lost sinners later by wilfully choosing to sin when we know the difference between right and wrong. E. J. Waggoner summarized it well in these words: "Not that men are born into the world directly condemned by the law, for in infancy, they have no knowledge of right and wrong and are incapable of doing either, but they are born with sinful tendencies, owing to the sins of their ancestors." (ST Jan. 21, 1889)
ReplyDeleteAnother way of saying it is that we inherit character traits, not all of which are positive. Then character is developed 'in the very young child by the interaction of parents and the child together. Up to this point there are sinful habits being formed to some degree, but there is no personal guilt or condemnation. At some point character is chosen by the individual, which is the point of personal accountability and guilt for wrong choices. Here is where personal sin enters the picture. "The thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character." (ST 310) It is the character that determines our condemnation or salvation, not our inherited nature. If we are saved, we will take our character to heaven exactly as we developed it on earth, while our nature will be totally recreated. In the matter of the gospel, the focus must always be on character development, which is the result of many personal choices. Sin and salvation always have to do with the character, not with inherited nature.
Focus on the task, not the goal. There is a reason you are here and it's not just correcting me, but the obvious. What you say is true, I would explain why I said what I said, but I have instructions not to do so. Although, I do have a question. Isn't there some where in the bible where someone asks Jesus is it better to know God, but not believe, or to not even know God? Or at least something relatively close to that?
Delete@ lilly September, thanks for that long summary of sin etc. But the fact remains that in order to accept your tale one has to presuppose the veracity of the scriptures and their many mythological tales. Secondly, you would also have to presuppose the existence of God, his conveying his will and message through the various prophets and anonymous authors of the scriptures. Thirdly, you would have to believe that they actually received their revelation from God. Thomas Paine stated it best in the book 'The Age of Reason' this is not a direct quote but a paraphrase of his idea. He stated that a revelation is only a revelation to the person claiming to have received it. To the rest of us it is simply hearsay since we did not receive it personally and have to take the word of the person claiming to have received it.
DeleteAnother problem I have is that I don't believe in sin as a real thing. The idea of sin is just that; an idea and nothing more based on your accepting and believing the tales as they are narrated in the scriptures. As an atheist I don't believe in God or any religious texts claiming to be inspired by him or any other concepts and beliefs taught in the bible such as heaven, hell, Satan, demons, angels etc. Or our need for salvation from the imaginary concept of sin.
Sin is defined basically as anything that goes against the delicate nature of God. But it appears that sin is subject to the personal whims of God as demonstrated many times throughout the bible. One example is the commandment to not kill, yet when he brought the Hebrews to the so called promised land they had to kill the inhabitants of the lands they conquered by divine command and military conquests.
@ •Hunter§Cat55•, the verse you are referring to is 2 Peter 2:21 and it refers mainly to backsliding. Just one more verse in scripture that is nothing more than an empty threat. Have you noticed that in the scriptures God demands that you follow and worship him? It's all based on threats and some sort of obligation.
ReplyDeleteYour question about why I am here can be answered very easily. I am first and foremost a husband, a father, and they are my reason for being here. They are my purpose and meaning for living, and providing for them gives me great satisfaction. I work hard and try to live a good life so that I may be an example to my children. God is not needed in my life nor am I interested in rekindling a belief in something I no longer accept as real and consider worth my time and energy.
Now I have to ask you this, in the real world, do you not get rewarded for what you do? This is the same with God. All you have to do is the ABC's of the bible. When you worship God, per say once a month, God gives you a better credit than that! Awesome, right? If you don't agree with this, then let me tell you this, since God is all powerful, he could have forced us to believe instead of saying that he demands that we do and let us choose Him or Hell. Praising God can be to support your family and helping others if you thank God that you were able to so. It doesn't hurt to have God with you, I prayed to God that I would do great at my first game in the marching band. I had almost no idea what I was doing, but my band director called me out. I was scared at first until I heard what he said. He said I was the BEST overall! Just think of the positives you have and you will see all God has given to you.
Delete"Now I have to ask you this, in the real world, do you not get rewarded for what you do?"
ReplyDeleteI love the way you worded that HunterSCat55! And the answer to your question is not always. But, One other thing we must realize is that life is unpredictable and even at times may seem unfair. If there was a God then he is not the kind of God theists describe. He is the opposite of love and is controlling and a tyrant. He almost seems needy in that he creates us with the sole purpose of worshiping him.
I find that I am better off without the delusion of a belief in God in that I don't have to rely on an imaginary guy in the sky for anything. I can claim all of my merits based on my own hard work and dedication to whatever it is I set out to do. I don't thank God for anything because I don't believe in him nor do I find him worthy of my worship based on his track record in the scriptures.
In closing, forcing someone to love you and bow down and worship you is not love. Love as I understand it has to be produced within us willingly and earned just like respect. God has not earned my respect but rather has earned my disgust and disdain. Even if he did exist I would not worship him.